We prayed. We voted. So what happened? Can we still have hope despite the results of an election?
- Ozark Mountain Prophecy Summit
- The End of America? by Jeff Kinley
- A Quick Reference Guide to the End Times by Jeff Kinley and Todd Hampson
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Todd: Welcome back to Prophecy Pros podcast, season three, and this is episode three, and we’re going to get really contentious today. We’re going to talk about politics, elections and Bible prophecy. Hold onto your seat. We’re going to get started in just a sec.
Jeff, obviously we’re recording this in January. We just walked through the whole craziness with the election and all the stuff surrounding that, and then everything that happened at the Capitol. This is actually before the inauguration day when we’re recording this, so who knows what will happen then. There’s a lot of divisive things going on, even within the body of Christ related to politics and everything that just happened.
In terms of being a believer, how should we respond to that? Do we align with a political party? Do we put our hope in that, in America that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and has had such a history? Obviously now we’re a post-Christian culture, post-Christian country, so how in the heck are we supposed to kind of wade through all of that in a way that maintains Christian unity and in a way that gives us clarity on what we should do right now?
Jeff: Yeah. These are really confusing times and really divisive times. In fact, I don’t know how we can become more divisive as a country.
Jeff: I mean, even within political parties, it’s like this multi-headed hydra. We just keep splintering off and creating these new little entities, even within political parties. I think one of the things that’s going on right now in this whole post-election thing, and of course people weigh in about was the election stolen and how much fraud and corruption that’s involved. I always tell my wife … I wrote a book one time about the sin nature. I said, you can always bet on the sin nature. The sin nature’s going to come through and do crooked and corrupt things, so things like that don’t surprise me. But I think from a Christian standpoint, Todd, a lot of Christians are really scratching their heads here, because they’re seeing what a critical state our country is in right now, and so much led up to this. So many rallies, so much just cohesion among the Christian community about, yes, we’re going to keep America great kind of thing, if you’re of that persuasion, which I think most Christians were. I think they’re saying this, we prayed, we voted, what happened?
Jeff: I think that’s what people are doing right now. They’re sort of wondering how did we lose this game? I mean, I thought we were ahead by 40 points in the fourth quarter and somehow we lost the game.
Jeff: How did this happen? I think one of the things that’s going on right now, and we’re not going to get into whether or not the election was stolen and things like that. Those are debates that are going to go on for time.
Jeff: I think one of the principles, Todd, that I’ve observed in the Christian world, evangelical Christianity, is that for 200 years or so we had our government that pretty much had our back morally. The official kind of stand of our government pretty much was in line with Christianity and with Biblical Judeo-Christian values, and so it hasn’t been really the past 30 or 40 years that we have strayed dramatically from that, where government now is not only not supporting Christian values, but is supporting the antithesis, the opposite of Christian values. I think it’s almost like evangelical Christianity has viewed our American government as almost like a big brother. I use that metaphorically. I mean, it is big brother now.
Todd: Yeah. It’s becoming a different kind of big brother now.
Jeff: The good big brother that you had. It’s like, “My big brother come and fight you on the playground,” kind of thing. I think we sort of saw that, is that we’ve leaned upon our big brother, our government, to kind of have our back, but all of a sudden there’s been a Jekyll/Hyde switch that’s gone on there. The government’s not going to do our job for us anymore, Todd. That’s a good thing, I think, in a sense, because it causes Christians to go, wait a minute, so the church has to be the church. The government’s not going to take care of us there. So in that, it is what it is, and here we find ourselves in this moment politically, and we have to really begin to do some reevaluation about what the Bible says we are, what a country is, and what do you do when you suddenly find yourself under an administration or in a country, even culturally, just minus the government, even culturally, that is really turning against Christians?
Todd: Yeah. I forget who it was, one of the founding fathers, had a quote that was something like democracy will only work if the people are righteous, if the people are following the same principles. That’s true. This is where a little bit of a history lesson is important for people, especially, we speak a lot to millennials and younger who may not realize with the ’60s and the sexual revolution and all that, if you read American history from the ’60s until now, it reads exactly like the second half of Romans one, God’s abandonment judgment. Like you said, we had all these prayer rallies on the mall, and good godly people praying for God to heal our country, and not even really taking a side politically, just God show up. Help us to have revival. Help us to turn back to you.
Millions of people prayed, but God did not answer in the way that many of them wanted to. It really seems like it’s kind of the end of that abandonment wrath, so to speak, in Romans chapter one. It’s not that God’s active wrath is on us, but he’s a gentleman. If we keep pushing him out, eventually he’s going to say, okay, I’m out. That’s not to say he’s not in control or he’s not sovereign. He is sovereign, and that’s what we can put our hope in, the fact that he is sovereign and that he knows what’s going on and has us here at this time for a purpose.
Jeff: Absolutely. What it really brings home, the point Todd, is that we are officially living in a post-Christian culture. This has not been something that happened during this election. It’s been happening all along. Back in 2017, I wrote a book called The End of America? A Country in Crisis.
Todd: That’s more relevant now than it was when you wrote it.
Jeff: Yeah. I mean, it’s like I wrote it then, but the things that I wrote about then have really only been exacerbated since that point. They’ve only increased in their intensity. It really, again, goes back to Romans one, because even talking about these subjects, even our listeners right now, they may be thinking, wait a minute. Is it is a Trump versus Biden kind of thing? no, it’s really a Bible prophecy thing versus the world, regardless about who is in office. In Romans one, we really do see this process of abandonment, how God delivers an individual, a culture, a nation, a civilization, really, over to themselves. It says three times in chapter one, God gave them over, God gave them over, and this is a judicial phrase here, which literally means to release someone to their own chains, to their own slavery. God’s not saying y’all can go have fun now. He’s saying, I’m going to let you be enslaved to the things that you have chosen.
Todd: You think this is what you wanted, huh?
Jeff: Yeah. You think this is great. What’s very interesting, in the very first part of that over in verse 21, it says, even though they knew God, they didn’t honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish hearts were darkened. One of the principles that we see really in politics and elections is that the more we push God out, we think we’re becoming enlightened. What happens is we’re turning the dimmer switch down with every choice that we make, and God says, hey, you are free to make choices, but you’re not free in the consequences of those choices. Of course, here it begins with denying God as the creator. Then it goes on to say, once you take God out of the picture, you’re left to your own imaginations. You essentially become a blind person in a dark room, that’s trying to describe the contents of the room, and yet at the same time, it says in verse 22, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
We get to the point as a culture, as a nation, where we actually think we’re smarter than God, but God says, no, you’re not smart. You’re fools. That word fool there is the word moros. We get our word moron from. It really is true. We become absolute morons when we deny who God is. What’s happened, Todd, is we think we know more about reproductive choices than God does, know more about the essence of what life is than God does, we know more about gender and sexuality than God does, we know more about love than God does, we know more about marriage than God does. God, essentially, in verses 24 through verse 28, he just says, all right, then here’s what you get. Todd, it’s not a pretty picture.
Todd: It’s not.
Jeff: That’s what we’re seeing here. We’re seeing this gradual devolution, if you will, of our country through some of the choices that we’ve made politically and morally.
Todd: Yeah. It really is. It is heartbreaking because we love our country.
Todd: There’s many people who love our country. On the good side of that, I think God can use it to help us to detach from that big brother a little bit that we’d been relying on and focus on living for him. I mean, if you think about it, if you read scripture, Israel at one point lived under paganism, first century church lived under paganism and thrived. It wasn’t an easy time for the church. Honestly, just being real, some of those times may be coming back. I hear a lot of people talk about a great end time awakening. Just to be honest, I don’t see that in scripture. I see a falling away. I see a waning, a movement away from God. Of course, we’ll see pockets of people coming to the Lord because he loves people. He wants to reach everyone, especially if we’re as close to the end times as we think we are.
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With all that, how should we now live? How do we navigate through this at this time, Jeff?
Jeff: Yeah. Again, I think we’re becoming more like the first century church than we have ever been in the last 2000 years. Now, if you think about it for a second, these first century Christians, they weren’t marching, they weren’t protesting. They certainly weren’t storming Caesar’s castle kind of thing, his stronghold there, but they grew up under a regime that was very hostile to any other faith other than the gods, the multiplicity of gods that Rome worshiped. Of course, Caesar worship as well. When Christianity came along, it became really a direct threat to Rome because it began to grow. There began to be persecution. Scripture tells us to pray for our elected leaders or for our leaders, rather. Peter says, honor the king. Well, who’s the king? He’s Caesar. Well, who’s Caesar there? He’s talking about Nero.
Todd: One most one of the most evil guys that’s ever lived.
Jeff: Yeah, I mean Nero would basically light his gardens with the bodies of Christians. He would impale them upon stakes, dip them in paraffin and they would become giant candles in his garden parties. The guy was crazy, probably from some venereal disease, but all that to say is honor the king. Now, what does that mean? Well, Romans 13, later in Romans, Paul talks about the fact that there’s no government that hasn’t been established by God. So we are to be citizens that are to live peaceable lives under a kingdom, whether it be a Christian or a pagan regime.
We find ourselves in this moment in a time where there’s a lot of fear, a lot of rumors going around. What’s this new president going to do? How’s it going to affect the church? How’s it going to affect Christians? How’s it going to affect our freedom? What things are going to be forced upon us? What values in the marketplace as they’re going to be forced paying for medical insurance that’s going to provide for abortions. There’s so many different things and issues. The main thing that God wants us to know is that we cannot count upon the government to basically come in, to save us, to encourage us, to provide for us, to support the church. We have to stick to what he’s given to us. What this does, Todd, is I think this whole election, I hope, has awakened Christians to the fact that all we really have that is sure is our faith and the word of God. When we consult the word, when we know what the word says, this becomes an indisputable guide for us.
Even our constitution that we rest upon as our country, we can’t depend upon that to even provide for us because so many people are acting against the things that are, I believe, unconstitutional. Our freedoms are slowly being eroded in this country. But guess what? Christians in China are thriving. Christians in North Korea are thriving.
Todd: Even Iran.
Jeff: Even Iran. Yeah. I mean, they’re living under these regimes that are very hostile to their faith, but guess what? It is purifying their faith. It’s causing them to really say, what is most important? It’s almost like, Todd, when there’s a house fire and you’re sifting through the rubble, but you say, do you know what? At least my family was saved. That’s the most important thing. It’s like what would you take if your house was on fire? Well, God is saying those are the most important things. The Lord is really gearing our thoughts and he’s gearing our spirits to begin to say, what are the priorities of being a Christian and living in a world that is not sympathetic to who we are?
Todd: Yeah, yeah. That’s well put. The other day I was really praying through this as we were preparing for this. I was like, Lord, what should we share with people? How should we live at this time? Immediately I had the impression, just a reminder of missionaries that I’ve known that have been on a field and a few mission trips I’ve taken, but seeing those full-time missionaries in some of the most unstable countries you could imagine. I know a good friend of mine’s a full-time missionary in Haiti. Our church supports a couple of missionaries in Haiti and I’ve been there. The government there has never been stable. It’s always corrupt. I mean the history there is just … nothing there is stable. Everything’s broken, but the missionaries just focus … do you know what they focus on? Preaching the gospel, the great commission, baptizing people, meeting real physical needs to point people to Christ.
I think it’s becoming more and more a thing like that, where we need to focus on what really matters. I think of Colossians 3:2 that says, “Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things,” or Matthew 6:21. It’s really a giving verse, but in the context of this, it applies to just our hearts and where they should be. It says, “Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. We need to start detaching from the things of the world and prayerfully asking, God, what am I relying on other than you that I need to shed and focus my attention on just trusting you during this time?
Jeff: Absolutely. Yeah. The world says to us, be political. That’s what the world says to us. God says, be spiritual.
Todd: Fight for your rights.
Jeff: Fight for your rights. That’s right. Not to say, if God calls you into the political realm, that’s fine. That’s great. Be that person. He may call you to do that, but here’s the thing. A couple of things is that we are so easily baited into some of these arguments and some of these controversies and that kind of thing. For a Christian, we need to rise above that and point people to something greater that is neither Republican nor Democrat, something that is much more significant, much more eternal, much more meaningful to their life now and in eternity, and that is to Jesus Christ.
I have lots of friends who are on the left, who are liberal leaning and that type of thing, and there have been times when I’ve been tempted to be baited into this discussion, even when I think I’m right, but the deal is, is that I don’t know of one single social media post that has completely revolutionized someone’s thinking and just changed their hearts completely. Oh, what was I thinking for the past 30 years? You’ve been right all along. That’s just not going to happen. It really just becomes a shouting match more than anything else. Don’t be drawn into those kinds of things. Stick to what is most important.
It’s like on the football field, when you’re on the kickoff, you stay in your lane. That’s what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to do your job, play the position that God has called you to play in this world. Don’t try to be somebody else. Yes, it’s good to be informed by other people that are very knowledgeable and experts in their field. At the same time, you’re not going to lead one single person to Jesus Christ by being political or by taking a stand.
We’ve got to go back to what God has called us to do and to realize, do you know what? For the next four years, things may get increasingly more challenging for us as believers. I mean, depending on what happens with the incoming president, what happens with him while he’s in office. There are many things that could go on, but even in the worst of times, Christians throughout the centuries, and even in Biblical times, have suffered and yet thrived under these type of regimes and governments. We can do the same because guess what? The same Holy Spirit that was in the first century church lives in us today. We’ve got more knowledge than they do because we’ve got the completed word of God.
Todd: Amen, amen. Like you said, this is a time where maybe the benefit is people can discover their calling. I think it’s a time more than ever to God, what are you calling me to do? For example, I have two or three friends that are just hilarious. They could sneeze and it makes you laugh. I could tell the same joke they did and it falls completely flat. I’m just not funny. I think I’m funny sometimes, but my kids remind me, they’re just dad jokes. All that to say, I don’t try to be the comedian. At this stage of life, I’ve wrestled with what is my calling, what is my lane? I think it’s important for all of us to know that. Scripture says that, that God has good works prepared in advance for us to bump into so to speak. Each of us has a calling at this very time.
One last verse, Philippians 3:20, reminds us our citizenship is in heaven. This isn’t our home, this isn’t the final act. God wins. We win with him. We have nothing but great things to look forward to. As you said, Jeff, I do think it’s a time where we need to amp up our courage like never before. We’re probably going to face more tough things, but God never leaves us. He never forsakes us. He knows our needs and he’s going to provide for us. That’s a healthy thing. We need to switch our mindset from being broken hearted and worried about the division in our country, and doing what we can as believers to heal that division and to trust him in the middle of it.
Jeff: Absolutely. There are ways that Christians can have impact on a local level politically. Obviously being involved politically on a local level. As far as it concerns our nation right now, I think we need to make sure that we are seeing the God’s big picture to see that Bible prophecy is moving forward and the stage is being set. Like tributaries in a river, they’re converging into this one great river of a prophetic narrative toward the end times. Also, the things that are happening in our country now are becoming to be more sympathetic with globalism, which is what we’re going to talk about in the next podcast. So it really is kind of leading us that way. Really it’s a progression of history, but remember that history is his story. It is God’s story that he’s telling, and not one thing is going to be missed. We’re not going to miss anything in God’s prophetic narrative. God’s going to make sure that everything he says in his word is going to happen.
Todd, as we talk about in our little quick reference, A Book to the End Times, is that if all the previous prophecies in the Old Testament were fulfilled literally and exactly as God said they would be, then why would we not expect that all future prophecies would be fulfilled in the same way? Everything we read in Revelation is going to happen just as it says, in Daniel as well, and I think what we’re experiencing right now is a narrative that overall is contributing to that one world government. We’ll see how it plays out locally in terms of our nation, but God’s process, God’s plan, God’s program is still in play and he is on his throne as Revelation four says. 13 times in 11 verses, the word throne is mentioned. God’s in control, he’s got this. What we need to do is to rest and let him drive the narrative.
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